Hmmmm... Mutt And Jeff??

[Sogturtle]

     Just curious... Does anyone out there have any of the other Mutt And Jeff cartoons from the final 1925-'26 period besides those few on Ray's DVD of a few years back and the redrawn "Alona Of The South Seas"??  Wonder if they're out there and if ANYONE (Ray, Steve) is planning a release... (research, research, research)

[Woody Woodpecker]

Here is a filmogrpahyfor the 1916-1923 series, but I don't know how complete it is its taken form that site bcdb.com for later 1925-1926 see David Gerstein is post few post down.

[Barbezinc]

A while back Tom shared with me several pics from a french-language print of one later Mutt and Jeff cartoon... The first sequence had Mutt crafting a soapbox. No idea what it is, alas.

[wundermild]

A few are out there in the surface web, like  Playing with Fire (1926; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF253eGu-oc) or - from Tom's old Youtube site - Soda Jerks (1925; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpsC1_h-20).

[Sogturtle]

      Wundermild, Barbezinc, WoodyWoodpecker~

            Thanks for the input and guidance to those couple of other late-era Mutt And Jeffs... The latter toons filmography is GENERALLY agreed on but there is some dispute as to spellings of titles and even the existence of some cartoons. My REASON for seeking out more of the little goobers is manifold, but at present am largely trying to determine the roles of Charley Bowers and the ever-so-young Sid Marcus in these.

          YES on paper both Charley Bowers and the "Associated Animators" corp. are purported to have made all of these of the 1925-'26 vintage... BUT in researching it's getting murkier, a published article of the day (graciously provided by our friend Detroiter) points out that the "Associated Animators" only consisted of FOUR animators, president Burt Gillett, Dick Heumer, Manny Gould and Ben Harrison, and according to Heumer the total studio roster of employees was VERY tiny. The earlier cartoons had indeed also been rolled out at the same pace BUT there's a list of no fewer than FOURTEEN animators listed as working on those...  What this MEANS is that it appears virtually impossible that this group of four animators (at "Associated Animators") could've churned out TWO full-length shorts each month (unless they had just HUGE lead time to amass a backlog, and THAT doesn't appear to have been the case).

         Even allowing for the actual directing and writing to have been done by Bowers and then sent over to Associated Animators (since he wasn't one of them) doesn't seem to help. The ONE theory that MIGHT well explain things is based on the list of animators provided from Denis Giffords book in which he nonchalantly also includes veteran New York animators I. Klein, George Rufle, Dick Friel PLUS the aforementioned kid, Sid Marcus. From the scant information available, and the non-appearance of this group elsewhere in that period it seems likely that these four (along with Ted Sears) were Bowers OWN employees at the time... And as such IF that was the case then it would easily explain the machine-gun-like churning out of 2 of the cartoons monthly. i.e. that Charley would send one out for animation at the same time his own crew was making one, but all directed by Bowers.

        And all this was going on immediately after Bowers had reportedly just concluded directing a six-reel "Bowers Process" film for an oil company, and as he was readying his entry into the realm of truly-demented comedy two-reelers starring himself and the "Bowers Process" creatures and creations... [Which necessitated several somebodies designing and making the creatures and then painstakingly moving them around for Charley to interact with on camera...].

       Once Charley Bowers started his two-reelers there were NO more new Mutt And Jeffs made ever!  Did Bud Fisher think Bowers was the only guy who could do them justice?  Or was there a contractual sticking point?

[Woody Woodpecker]

Hello, Turtle guy.
Well, I knew you are mostly asking about those later day Mutt and Jeff but I thought it might be intresting to discuss the Mutt and Jeff in wider aspect hence I posted a filmography. Its just heart taking that there seems to be no "complete" filmography. Its form bcdb.com but I don't know how complete it is there titles I have seen only appearing in imdb.com and some are not even mentioned Domestic Difficulties, which appeared on the first Popeye DVD as bonus.  Now I don't know what is listed in Denis Grifford is book, Buts probably more complete than what you would find online I guess.

[Sogturtle]

Hello, Turtle guy.
Well, I knew you are mostly asking about those later day Mutt and Jeff but I thought it might be intresting to discuss the Mutt and Jeff in wider aspect hence I posted a filmography. Its just heart taking that there seems to be no "complete" filmography. Its form bcdb.com but I don't know how complete it is there titles I have seen only appearing in imdb.com and some are not even mentioned Domestic Difficulties, which appeared on the first Popeye DVD as bonus.  Now I don't know what is listed in Denis Grifford is book, Buts probably more complete than what you would find online I guess.

      Woody Woodpecker~

           It would be NICE to have some sort of discussion of the Mutt And Jeff animated cartoons, but until a LOT more of them are released then the discussing is going to be VERY scant....  And THAT is a shame as they were such a massive part of silent animation and with the likes of Gillett, Bowers, Heumer,  I. Klein, Ted Sears, Sid Marcus and several others, then they become important to sound cartoons.

         I tend to trust Denis Giffords filmographies of them more than I do the other published versions. But as mentioned before there ARE differences to some extent between him and Graham Webb as to actual films, at least of the final group.

         I'm PRESUMING that the existent filmographies are based on release schedules published in the trades way back then... While trying to research the final phase (1925-'26) the Turtle discovered that NOBODY bothered to copyright them, not Bud Fisher, not Charley Bowers, not the releasing company, nobody!!  Sooooo it takes away the copyright catalog as a resource...

[chuckamuck53]

Can anyone tell me the story behind those colorized episodes that are on YouTube - who are the guilty parties? Jeez, the music in Soda Jerks sounds like DePatie-Freleng meets 70's porn!

[Barbezinc]

Okay, here are the two cartoons I was referring to... apparently earlier-period Mutt & Jeffs (still no idea what they are Tom?)

[Sogturtle]

Can anyone tell me the story behind those colorized episodes that are on YouTube - who are the guilty parties? Jeez, the music in Soda Jerks sounds like DePatie-Freleng meets 70's porn!

    Chuckamuck~
          The colorized Mutt And Jeffs were were done back in the early sound era by "KromoKolor".   From what is known, Bud Fisher wanted cartoons for the sound era, and conversely, for whatever reason Charley Bowers had no desire to go BACK into cel-animation (after his promising two-reelers failed to continue in to the realm of sound).  Sooooo the color ones were a kind of makeshift solution for Fisher, not a good one mind you...

[Tom Stathes]

Okay, here are the two cartoons I was referring to... apparently earlier-period Mutt & Jeffs (still no idea what they are Tom?)

Good record-keeping, Valentin?

David Gerstein and I think the first one might be Fireman Save My Child, but it's extremely difficult putting the correct names to these films because barely any synopses are easily accessible and often the titles are not at all specific to the narratives. But that does seem to be the best match.

[Barbezinc]

Barbezinc/Barbenzingue never forgets!

[Tom Stathes]

Can anyone tell me the story behind those colorized episodes that are on YouTube - who are the guilty parties? Jeez, the music in Soda Jerks sounds like DePatie-Freleng meets 70's porn!

    Chuckamuck~
          The colorized Mutt And Jeffs were were done back in the early sound era by "KromoKolor".   From what is known, Bud Fisher wanted cartoons for the sound era, and conversely, for whatever reason Charley Bowers had no desire to go BACK into cel-animation (after his promising two-reelers failed to continue in to the realm of sound).  Sooooo the color ones were a kind of makeshift solution for Fisher, not a good one mind you...

I think our friend Chuck is speaking of the 1970s Radio & Television Packagers redrawn. Anyone who is handy with old forum links can probably pull up info on that whole situation; no need to spell it out again here.

But--are you referencing any specific documents or press that confirm it was Fisher who enacted the 1930 redrawns? David Kleinerman of Screen Attractions Corp./Modern Film Sales Corp. was apparently a bit of a film pirate who bought old outdated films to reprint and sell in 8mm, 16mm, etc. Though these redrawn Mutt and Jeff cartoons were definitely distributed theatrically as there are nitrate 35mm prints out there and they must have been a minor big deal at the time. Kleinerman might have licensed the "outdated, silent" cartoons from Fisher or whichever of his corporate/trademark successors (ex-wife?) had the rights to the cartoons by 1930. Or bought elements on them at a fire sale of sorts and just had his way with them (and may or may not have licensed the characters, if not the films per-se)

[Sogturtle]

Can anyone tell me the story behind those colorized episodes that are on YouTube - who are the guilty parties? Jeez, the music in Soda Jerks sounds like DePatie-Freleng meets 70's porn!

    Chuckamuck~
          The colorized Mutt And Jeffs were were done back in the early sound era by "KromoKolor".   From what is known, Bud Fisher wanted cartoons for the sound era, and conversely, for whatever reason Charley Bowers had no desire to go BACK into cel-animation (after his promising two-reelers failed to continue in to the realm of sound).  Sooooo the color ones were a kind of makeshift solution for Fisher, not a good one mind you...

I think our friend Chuck is speaking of the 1970s Radio & Television Packagers redrawn. Anyone who is handy with old forum links can probably pull up info on that whole situation; no need to spell it out again here.

But--are you referencing any specific documents or press that confirm it was Fisher who enacted the 1930 redrawns? David Kleinerman of Screen Attractions Corp./Modern Film Sales Corp. was apparently a bit of a film pirate who bought old outdated films to reprint and sell in 8mm, 16mm, etc. Though these redrawn Mutt and Jeff cartoons were definitely distributed theatrically as there are nitrate 35mm prints out there and they must have been a minor big deal at the time. Kleinerman might have licensed the "outdated, silent" cartoons from Fisher or whichever of his corporate/trademark successors (ex-wife?) had the rights to the cartoons by 1930. Or bought elements on them at a fire sale of sorts and just had his way with them (and may or may not have licensed the characters, if not the films per-se)

     Tom~

         Excellent points all!!  My point was predicated on the fact that Bud Fisher successfully SUED and WON back in 1925 when someone else (a theatrical play producer) had licensed NEW Mutt And Jeff cartoons to be made.   Fisher WON the same month that the last series of those NEW Mutt And Jeff cartoons started. 

        So with THAT in mind either Fisher or Mrs. Fisher HAD to have licensed out the right to "re-do" the cartoons, OR wham-bam , Modern Films would've found themselves not only in court but liable for damages AND been out all the money of coloring and scoring the darned things. But then again maybe Modern Films did it and got by, but knowing Fisher's quickness to sue to protect his rights the Turtle has his doubts.

[David Gerstein]

I tend to trust Denis Giffords filmographies of them more than I do the other published versions. But as mentioned before there ARE differences to some extent between him and Graham Webb as to actual films, at least of the final group.

Tom Stathes and I have researched the Associated Animators series extensively in recent years, looking through trade journals and government documents (among other resources).
I won't try to get into release dates yet, as we don't have all of those nailed. But the Associated season definitely consisted of 26 titles—and we can state with 99% certainty that they are as follows, listed alphabetically:

ACCIDENTS WON'T HAPPEN
AROMA OF THE SOUTH SEAS
BEAR FACTS
THE BIG SWIM
BOMBS AND BUMS (UK title: "Bombs and Boobs")
DOG GONE (AKA "Dog Missing," a much later reissue title)
GLOBE TROTTERS
INVISIBLE REVENGE
A KICK FOR CINDERELLA
A LINK MISSING
"LOTS" OF WATER
MIXING IN MEXICO
MUMMY O' MINE (AKA "Egyptian Daze," a much later reissue title)
OCEANS OF TROUBLE (originally previewed as "All at Sea")
PLAYING WITH FIRE
ROMAN SCANDAL
SET 'EM UP AGAIN
SKATING INSTRUCTORS (originally previewed as "On Thin Ice")
SLICK SLEUTHS
SODA CLERKS (AKA "Soda Jerks," which seems to be an error)
A STRETCH IN TIME
THOU SHALT NOT PASS (AKA "They Shall Not Pass," a much later reissue title)
UPS AND DOWNS
WESTWARD WHOA
WHEN HELL FREEZES OVER
WHERE AM I?

OCEANS OF TROUBLE and SKATING INSTRUCTORS were previewed under the earlier titles—then released under the later titles, with at least one document formally confirming the name changes. One film journal reviewed OCEANS OF TROUBLE on two different dates, once under each title.
Internal evidence in A KICK FOR CINDERELLA suggests it may have been made before the others, but other documentation clarifies that it was definitely released as part of this group.

There is another apparent reissue title, "Troubles Galore," that has turned up in home use catalogs. We're not sure (yet) which original cartoon it represents.