PopKorn Kat
2024-01-13T02:10:22Z
Jimmy Two Shoes wrote:


You're wrong, humor is in fact the main criterion for rating the quality of a cartoon. A cartoon that contains beautiful visuals but isn't funny will be much less appreciated than one that contains a lot of humor, and for this reason, Tex Avery's MGM-produced cartoons and those of WB will remain infinitely more popular than Disney's.



While it's okay to prefer comedy-centric animated shorts or TV shows, stating "humor is in fact the main criterion for rating the quality of a cartoon" is a rather closed-minded view to take. Humor does not necessarily have to be the director's/writer's/animator's goal when making an animated cartoon, and I can name many compelling shorts that are not comedic in nature but are still amazing. For example, Screen Gems' The Little Match Girl is a faithful adaptation of Hans Christian Andersen's story of the same name, and it ends just as tragically. Norman McLaren's Begone Dull Care, meanwhile, is a visual tour de force painted directly onto the filmstrip. Both of these films are completely different in their scope and intent, but one thing is for sure - neither of them were made with comedy in mind.

I must remind you and ArcLordOne to remain civil while discussing these cartoons, or else this thread will be closed. Thank you.
ArcLordOne
2024-01-13T03:31:01Z
Originally Posted by: PopKorn Kat 

Jimmy Two Shoes wrote:


You're wrong, humor is in fact the main criterion for rating the quality of a cartoon. A cartoon that contains beautiful visuals but isn't funny will be much less appreciated than one that contains a lot of humor, and for this reason, Tex Avery's MGM-produced cartoons and those of WB will remain infinitely more popular than Disney's.



While it's okay to prefer comedy-centric animated shorts or TV shows, stating "humor is in fact the main criterion for rating the quality of a cartoon" is a rather closed-minded view to take. Humor does not necessarily have to be the director's/writer's/animator's goal when making an animated cartoon, and I can name many compelling shorts that are not comedic in nature but are still amazing. For example, Screen Gems' The Little Match Girl is a faithful adaptation of Hans Christian Andersen's story of the same name, and it ends just as tragically. Norman McLaren's Begone Dull Care, meanwhile, is a visual tour de force painted directly onto the filmstrip. Both of these films are completely different in their scope and intent, but one thing is for sure - neither of them were made with comedy in mind.

I must remind you and ArcLordOne to remain civil while discussing these cartoons, or else this thread will be closed. Thank you.


I love McLaren's stuff!

I will remain civil.


PopKorn Kat
2024-01-21T09:22:26Z
Bonny, do not resort to accusatory or hostile phrases such as "you seem so attached to Disney", "so far your intervention has been totally useless", and "you're a liar and you're clearly trying to slander me for some reason I haven't grasped yet".

Since I had already given out a prior warning to be civil, I regret to say that I will be closing this thread for the time being.
PopKorn Kat
2024-01-26T04:23:26Z
Alright, decided to reopen this topic. Please, please be civil, everyone.
Bobby Bickert
2024-01-27T00:32:58Z
I'd better get this in before this thread gets locked again...

I disagree with the posts calling Flip the Frog a Mickey Mouse imitation. Yes, Flip started out with a "lookalike" girlfriend. But then he had a cat for a girlfriend, and finally a human girlfriend. That's more in line with Fleischer than Disney. (So was relocating the cartoons from a swamp to an urban setting.) These cartoons seemed to really take advantage of there not being a Hayes Code yet, like characters saying "Damn!" in "Room Runners" and "Fire! Fire!". Some of Flip's cartoons, like "Room Runners" and "The Office Boy", are pretty racy for cartoons from the era. When I first watched "Circus" on one of the Bosko Video VHS tapes from the 1990's, it seemed like it had been edited. Now having seen an uncensored version (thanks to Thunderbean), I see that what was edited out was the Spinster getting "aroused" by the pickpocket. There are "fairies" in cartoons like "The Bully" and "Soda Squirt". "Chinaman's Chance" is partly set in an opium den. I can't see any of these things happening in a Disney cartoon. In "The Nurse Maid", the baby that Flip is supposed to be taking care of for the Spinster drinks something that has the effect of Popeye eating spinach. This results in a wild chase that moves to a pet store (which for some reason has a lion for sale) then to a Turkish bath. This cartoon ends with cross-dressing. Again, not something you would see in a Disney cartoon. (I wonder how many of these cartoons were written (or co-written) by Ben Hardaway?) So I think Flip's cartoons are more like Fleischer's than Disney's, but they have their own quirks. (I haven't seen that much of Lantz, Columbia/Mintz and Terrytoons from that era for comparison.)

(Right now the only Willie Whopper cartoon I've watched (so far) is "Reducing Creme", in which the shrunken Willie squirms around inside the maid's clothes. Again, kind of racy and not something you'd see in a Disney cartoon. I watched some of the ComiColor cartoons years ago, but about all I remember is a female egg falling into a pot of boiling water and coming out looking and acting like Mae West because she's now "hard boiled". I would imagine that by then the Iwerks studio's cartoons were affected by the Hayes Code. I can't remember anything distinctive about the Color Rhapsodies that were outsourced to the Iwerks studio when I watched them on Totally Tooned In on Antenna TV, other than "Skeleton Frolic" being a more lavish color remake of "The Skeleton Dance". And "Porky and Gabby" and "Porky's Service" had some of the Schlesinger staff involved so they aren't "pure Iwerks".)
Bonny MacLaren
2024-01-27T23:43:32Z
Originally Posted by: Bobby Bickert 

I'd better get this in before this thread gets locked again...

I disagree with the posts calling Flip the Frog a Mickey Mouse imitation. Yes, Flip started out with a "lookalike" girlfriend. But then he had a cat for a girlfriend, and finally a human girlfriend. That's more in line with Fleischer than Disney. (So was relocating the cartoons from a swamp to an urban setting.) These cartoons seemed to really take advantage of there not being a Hayes Code yet, like characters saying "Damn!" in "Room Runners" and "Fire! Fire!". Some of Flip's cartoons, like "Room Runners" and "The Office Boy", are pretty racy for cartoons from the era. When I first watched "Circus" on one of the Bosko Video VHS tapes from the 1990's, it seemed like it had been edited. Now having seen an uncensored version (thanks to Thunderbean), I see that what was edited out was the Spinster getting "aroused" by the pickpocket. There are "fairies" in cartoons like "The Bully" and "Soda Squirt". "Chinaman's Chance" is partly set in an opium den. I can't see any of these things happening in a Disney cartoon. In "The Nurse Maid", the baby that Flip is supposed to be taking care of for the Spinster drinks something that has the effect of Popeye eating spinach. This results in a wild chase that moves to a pet store (which for some reason has a lion for sale) then to a Turkish bath. This cartoon ends with cross-dressing. Again, not something you would see in a Disney cartoon. (I wonder how many of these cartoons were written (or co-written) by Ben Hardaway?) So I think Flip's cartoons are more like Fleischer's than Disney's, but they have their own quirks. (I haven't seen that much of Lantz, Columbia/Mintz and Terrytoons from that era for comparison.)

(Right now the only Willie Whopper cartoon I've watched (so far) is "Reducing Creme", in which the shrunken Willie squirms around inside the maid's clothes. Again, kind of racy and not something you'd see in a Disney cartoon. I watched some of the ComiColor cartoons years ago, but about all I remember is a female egg falling into a pot of boiling water and coming out looking and acting like Mae West because she's now "hard boiled". I would imagine that by then the Iwerks studio's cartoons were affected by the Hayes Code. I can't remember anything distinctive about the Color Rhapsodies that were outsourced to the Iwerks studio when I watched them on Totally Tooned In on Antenna TV, other than "Skeleton Frolic" being a more lavish color remake of "The Skeleton Dance". And "Porky and Gabby" and "Porky's Service" had some of the Schlesinger staff involved so they aren't "pure Iwerks".)



In fact, when I said that Flip had become a Mickey imitation, I was thinking mainly of the cartoons Iwerks produced during the 1930-31 season, but I agree with you that the cartoons produced during the 1932-33 season are indeed closer to Fleischer than to Disney. This is certainly due to the fact that many of Fleischer's former animators were hired at the Iwerks studio, including Grim Natwick, Al Eugster, Ben Wolf and Shamus Culhane. These four cartoonists ended up co-directing all the Iwerks studio's cartoons until 1935.

On the other hand, I don't agree with you about Flip's girlfriend, because even if the female squirrel who appears in "Flying Fists" has a design that looks a lot like Mickey's, she has the merit of being a species of animal that had hitherto been little used in cartoons, whereas cats appear in many cartoons and had become very common, and the design of Flip's cat girlfriend is almost identical to Oswald's girlfriend who appeared in "Empty Socks" (1927).

As for Flip's universe, I think the choice of the swamp as the theme for a cartoon series was something much more original than the more common themes of town and country, and I don't know of any other series from this period that chose to take place in the swamp.
Jimmy Two Shoes
2024-01-30T23:57:34Z
Originally Posted by: ArcLordOne 

Originally Posted by: Jimmy Two Shoes 

Originally Posted by: ArcLordOne 

Originally Posted by: Bonny MacLaren 

Hello, I have a lot of questions about the beginnings of the frog, so I'll ask them here.

Firstly, I'd like to know if Ub Iwerks really created the character of Flip at the same time as Mickey when he and Disney were looking for a new character to replace Oswald. I've read this information on the internet but I haven't been able to find any sources that could confirm it.

Secondly, I've also read that Ub Iwerks wanted Flip to become Mickey's sidekick in his cartoons but that Walt Disney refused for some unknown reason and this would be the main reason why Ub Iwerks parted company with Disney. However, Iwerks seems to have used a prototype of Flip in the Springtime cartoon (1929), and this somewhat calls into question this earlier assertion.

The most interesting fact to note is that Flip The Frog's initial design was much closer to that of a real frog, and that his first cartoons were set in a completely different environment from that of any other cartoon character of the time, a setting that also closely resembled the Silly Symphonies. Unfortunately, by his third cartoon, Flip seems to want to conform and adopts a much more generic design with pants, gloves and shoes, and his squirrel girlfriend disappears in favor of a female Flip clone. Worse still, from his fifth cartoon onwards, Flip's world becomes totally urban, and Flip himself is transformed into an imitation of Mickey Mouse.

How to explain this complete turnaround on the part of Ub Iwerks?


Is there any particular reason you hate Disney so much? It's obvious you've never actually watched the Disney films, because you just echo the stereotypes about them.

You view them not by their value but rather by the axiom "They ain't that funny", as if that were the only way to judge a cartoon. Are Disnry cartoons the funniest? No. Are they still fantastic? Yes.

Flip cartoons are good but there's nothing going on underneath, like at Disney or WB.



You're wrong, humor is in fact the main criterion for rating the quality of a cartoon. A cartoon that contains beautiful visuals but isn't funny will be much less appreciated than one that contains a lot of humor, and for this reason, Tex Avery's MGM-produced cartoons and those of WB will remain infinitely more popular than Disney's.


I say this with respect:

The point of animation is to bring to life what cannot be shown in live-action. Using the logic that cartoons should only be funny (as if Disney's films aren't funny, which I could name many off the top of my head that are hysterical) is essentially the same as saying all movies should be comedies. And there would be none of these studios' styles without him.

I used to think that his films were wimpy and girlish, not funny, etc because John K and the Clampett Cult said so. After watching them myself I was angry that I had been lied to, and amazed at how good they were. Have you actually watched them--at least closely?



You're forgetting that the history of cartoons is completely different from the history of films, because unlike films, the main raison d'être of cartoons has always been to be comedies, and this was established right from the start with the achievements of pioneers Emile Cohl and Winsor McCay, and absolutely no one could argue with that in the years that followed (including Walt Disney in those early cartoons).

Unfortunately, in the early thirties, Walt Disney decided that humor would no longer be the priority for cartoons; instead, Walt decreed that visuals would be the priority. For this reason, Disney's productions are undoubtedly the blandest of the era, and Mickey is the most insipid character who ever existed. All the cartoons produced by their competitors were much funnier and featured characters far more engaging than Mickey. Harman-Ising, for example, while often described as mere Disney imitators, actually produced far better cartoons than the latter, and Bosko had far more personality than Mickey. Even Van Beuren's cartoons, which you claim to despise and constantly seek to denigrate, are much funnier than Disney's.

And John Kricfalusi is absolutely right in his criticism of the Disney studios, particularly when he says that Disney has completely destroyed the medium of animation by suffocating it under the weight of rules. In fact, during the first decades of animation history, animators enjoyed a great deal of freedom, which enabled cartoons of that era to reach high levels of creativity and surrealism, particularly in the early thirties. Unfortunately, the Disney steamroller put a definitive end to this incredible period of inventiveness and experimentation, and cartoons that were once hilarious became soft and boring with a horribly realistic drawing style. All cartoons were more or less infected by Walt's rot until one man had the courage to speak out against Disney: Tex Avery.

Avery managed to save the creativity and humor in cartoons from being completely annihilated by Disney's silliness, and I'm sincerely indebted to him for that, even if he unfortunately didn't manage to break Disney's influence completely.
Jimmy Two Shoes
2024-01-31T00:19:56Z
Originally Posted by: PopKorn Kat 

Jimmy Two Shoes wrote:


You're wrong, humor is in fact the main criterion for rating the quality of a cartoon. A cartoon that contains beautiful visuals but isn't funny will be much less appreciated than one that contains a lot of humor, and for this reason, Tex Avery's MGM-produced cartoons and those of WB will remain infinitely more popular than Disney's.



While it's okay to prefer comedy-centric animated shorts or TV shows, stating "humor is in fact the main criterion for rating the quality of a cartoon" is a rather closed-minded view to take. Humor does not necessarily have to be the director's/writer's/animator's goal when making an animated cartoon, and I can name many compelling shorts that are not comedic in nature but are still amazing. For example, Screen Gems' The Little Match Girl is a faithful adaptation of Hans Christian Andersen's story of the same name, and it ends just as tragically. Norman McLaren's Begone Dull Care, meanwhile, is a visual tour de force painted directly onto the filmstrip. Both of these films are completely different in their scope and intent, but one thing is for sure - neither of them were made with comedy in mind.

I must remind you and ArcLordOne to remain civil while discussing these cartoons, or else this thread will be closed. Thank you.



You're confusing cartoons with animation.

Animation is a much broader field than cartoons, and is not especially linked to comedy.

Norman McLaren's films are animation, and examples like The Little Match Girl are merely occasional literary adaptations that aren't always devoid of comedy.
Bobby Bickert
2024-01-31T01:06:55Z
I'd better get this in before this thread gets locked again...

Originally Posted by: Jimmy Two Shoes 

You're forgetting that the history of cartoons is completely different from the history of films, because unlike films, the main raison d'être of cartoons has always been to be comedies, and this was established right from the start with the achievements of pioneers Emile Cohl and Winsor McCay,



What about "The Sinking of the Lusitania"? ("And they tell us not to hate the Hun.")

PopKorn Kat
2024-01-31T01:42:11Z
Jimmy Two Shoes, I believe this debate has gone far past the original topic of Flip the Frog, and it should really be moved to a new thread.

Please keep any future posts related to Flip the Frog. Thank you.
Jimmy Two Shoes
2024-01-31T22:30:39Z
Originally Posted by: Bobby Bickert 

I'd better get this in before this thread gets locked again...

Originally Posted by: Jimmy Two Shoes 

You're forgetting that the history of cartoons is completely different from the history of films, because unlike films, the main raison d'être of cartoons has always been to be comedies, and this was established right from the start with the achievements of pioneers Emile Cohl and Winsor McCay,



What about "The Sinking of the Lusitania"? ("And they tell us not to hate the Hun.")



"The Sinking of the Lusitania" is not a cartoon, but an animated documentary. McCay's aim was to raise public awareness of this tragic event, not to entertain.
Jimmy Two Shoes
2024-01-31T22:41:57Z
Originally Posted by: PopKorn Kat 

Jimmy Two Shoes, I believe this debate has gone far past the original topic of Flip the Frog, and it should really be moved to a new thread.

Please keep any future posts related to Flip the Frog. Thank you.



ArcLordOne was the first to hijack conservation by telling me about Disney studios and their cartoons, so I don't understand why you're accusing me when all I did was reply to him.
PopKorn Kat
2024-02-01T07:26:35Z
Jimmy, regardless of "who started it" (which I'm not interested in), you chose to keep the off-topic conversation going even after I warned everyone to reign it in and consider starting a new thread. This sort of arguing is why I locked the thread last time.

To everyone involved; if you want this thread to stay open (and there were several of you expressing dismay that the thread was locked last time), please consider relocating this conversation about what is and isn't "cartoons"/"animation" to another thread. Last warning.